Zamioculcas Zamiifolia Raven

The Black ZZ Plant, formally named Zamioculcas zamiifolia ‘Raven’, is the rare houseplant that looks like it was dipped in ink and then quietly decided to thrive anyway. It is a rhizomatous aroid, meaning it belongs to the Araceae family and grows from thick underground storage structures rather than delicate fibrous roots. That detail matters because it explains almost everything about its care. This plant evolved to survive long dry spells, low light, and neglect that would finish off more dramatic species.

It prefers infrequent watering with the soil drying fully between waterings, not because it enjoys suffering, but because its rhizomes store water and rot easily if kept wet. The reputation for low light tolerance is mostly deserved, although “low light” still means some light, not a decorative abyss.

Toxicity is real but often exaggerated. The tissues contain calcium oxalate raphides, which are microscopic needle-shaped crystals that cause mechanical irritation if chewed or if sap contacts mucous membranes. This results in localized burning and swelling, not organ failure or medical drama.

The Black ZZ Plant is not a cuddly housemate, but it is also not plotting to poison the household.

For buyers who want something architectural, dark, and unwilling to die just because watering was forgotten, this plant makes a compelling case.

Introduction and Identity

Zamioculcas zamiifolia ‘Raven’ is a houseplant that looks like it was dipped in ink and somehow survived, which is precisely why it keeps ending up in modern interiors that value drama without maintenance. The plant is not naturally black in the wild. ‘Raven’ is a selected cultivar, which means humans noticed a desirable trait, propagated it repeatedly, and stabilized it through clonal reproduction. Cultivar status matters because it explains why seeds are irrelevant and why color consistency depends on light and maturity rather than genetics reshuffling.

The base species, Zamioculcas zamiifolia, is native to eastern Africa and belongs to the family Araceae, the same botanical family that includes philodendrons, monsteras, and peace lilies, although this one behaves like the antisocial cousin who does not need attention.

The growth habit is rhizomatous and perennial. A rhizome is essentially a thickened underground stem that stores water and carbohydrates.

In plain language, it is a built-in emergency pantry.

Instead of relying on constant moisture from the soil, the plant hoards resources below the surface and uses them slowly. This is why overwatering is such a reliable way to kill it.

When the soil stays wet, oxygen levels drop around the rhizome, and tissues adapted for storage rather than respiration begin to rot.

The black coloration is not present when leaves first emerge. New growth starts green, which alarms buyers who thought they purchased a goth plant, but the color shift is normal. The darkening occurs as anthocyanins accumulate in the leaf tissue.

Anthocyanins are pigments that appear red, purple, or nearly black depending on concentration and light conditions.

They do not replace chlorophyll.

Chlorophyll is still there, quietly doing photosynthesis. The black color overlays it like tinted glass over a functioning window.

Without chlorophyll, the plant would not survive, no matter how fashionable it looked.

Toxicity is often misunderstood. Like many aroids, Zamioculcas contains calcium oxalate raphides.

These are microscopic needle-like crystals that physically irritate tissue when chewed or when sap contacts sensitive areas such as the mouth or eyes. Proteolytic enzymes in the sap worsen the irritation by breaking down proteins in exposed tissue, which is why the sensation feels intense and immediate.

This is a localized mechanical and chemical irritation, not systemic poisoning.

There is no liver failure waiting in the wings.

It is unpleasant and worth avoiding, especially around pets and children, but it is not a silent killer.

Authoritative botanical references such as the Missouri Botanical Garden describe this mechanism clearly and without drama, which is refreshing in a marketplace that thrives on panic.

Quick Care Snapshot

Parameter	Practical Reality
Light	Bright indirect light tolerated, low light survived but not enjoyed
Temperature	Typical indoor range comfortable
Humidity	Average home humidity sufficient
Soil pH	Slightly acidic to neutral, which matches most indoor mixes
USDA Zone	Outdoor survival only in zones 10–11
Watering Trigger	Soil fully dry to the bottom of the pot
Fertilizer	Minimal feeding during active growth

These parameters sound clinical until translated into real spaces and habits.

Bright indirect light means placing the plant where it can see the sun but not be interrogated by it. A few feet back from a window usually works.

Low light tolerance does not mean the plant can photosynthesize in darkness.

It means it slows down, stretches time, and survives.

Growth becomes glacial, color dulls, and eventual decline is possible. Placing it in a windowless room and expecting long-term success is wishful thinking dressed as confidence.

Temperature tolerance is broad because the plant is built for stability, not fluctuation.

Standard indoor temperatures feel fine.

What it does not tolerate well are cold drafts and sudden drops, which chill the rhizomes and slow metabolic processes that are already conservative. Humidity is refreshingly irrelevant.

Average household air is acceptable, and trying to increase humidity with misting usually results in wet leaves and no benefit, which is a poor trade.

Soil pH rarely needs adjustment because commercial indoor mixes already fall within the acceptable range. The real issue is structure, not chemistry. USDA zones matter only if someone insists on testing fate outdoors.

This plant is not frost tolerant, and cold damage does not look dramatic at first.

It looks like delayed collapse, which is worse.

Watering is the critical decision point. The trigger is full dryness, not the top inch feeling polite.

Watering before the lower soil dries keeps the rhizomes wet and oxygen-starved. Fertilizer is optional and modest.

Overfeeding produces soft growth that collapses under its own weight. Feeding heavily to “help” a slow plant usually helps it die faster.

The most common mistake is treating low light tolerance as an excuse to ignore light entirely. Another is watering on a schedule rather than in response to soil conditions. Schedules are for people, not plants with storage organs.

The Black ZZ Plant operates on supply and demand, not calendar reminders.

Where to Place It in Your Home

North- and east-facing windows work well because they provide steady, indirect light without the intensity that overheats leaves or bleaches pigmentation. Morning light from the east is particularly gentle and encourages healthy growth without forcing rapid water use.

South-facing windows are workable but usually require distance. Direct midday sun through glass can heat leaf tissue beyond what it can dissipate, leading to scorched patches and accelerated moisture loss. Pulling the plant back several feet diffuses the light and protects the foliage.

West-facing windows are the trickiest.

Afternoon sun is hot, angled, and persistent.

It can stress foliage, especially in summer, and cause the black leaves to fade toward an unimpressive greenish bronze. Stress also increases water demand, which tempts overwatering, which then punishes the rhizomes. This chain reaction is avoidable by choosing calmer light.

Dark corners have a reputation as acceptable placements, largely because the plant refuses to die quickly. Survival, however, is not the same as health.

In low-light corners, growth slows to a crawl, leaf color lightens, and the plant becomes more susceptible to rot because water use drops.

Bathrooms without windows fail for the same reason. Humidity without light is not a substitute for photosynthesis.

The plant cannot run on steam.

Pushing pots against cold exterior walls chills the root zone, which slows nutrient uptake and increases rot risk.

Heater vents create the opposite problem by desiccating petioles, the stalks that hold the leaflets, leading to shriveled growth and uneven water loss.

Frequent relocation is another quiet stressor. Plants acclimate their metabolism to light intensity.

Moving them repeatedly forces constant adjustment, which wastes energy and delays growth.

Stability is undervalued and very effective.

Potting and Root Health

Oversized pots are dangerous for ZZ plants because excess soil stays wet long after the plant has finished drinking.

Rhizomes sitting in damp, airless soil begin to suffocate. Oxygen diffusion is critical for root and rhizome health, which is why drainage holes are not optional.

Water needs a clear exit, not a polite suggestion.

Bark in the soil mix improves oxygen diffusion by creating air pockets that resist collapse. Perlite reduces compaction and keeps the mix open, which again supports oxygen movement.

Coco coir balances moisture retention without the dense waterlogging associated with heavy peat. Peat-heavy mixes hold water like a sponge wrapped in plastic, which is ideal for rot.

The plant does not need constant moisture access because it already stores water internally.

Plastic pots retain moisture longer, which can be useful in bright light where water use is higher, but dangerous in low light. Terracotta breathes, allowing moisture to evaporate through the pot walls, which provides a safety margin against overwatering.

Repotting should be based on rhizome crowding, not on an annual tradition.

When rhizomes press against the pot walls or distort the container, space is needed. Winter repotting increases rot risk because growth is slow and roots recover poorly.

Signs of hypoxic or rotting rhizomes include sour smells, soft tissues, and sudden stem collapse.

Root physiology research from university extension services consistently emphasizes oxygen availability as a limiting factor in container-grown plants, and ZZ plants are an exaggerated example of that principle.

Watering Logic

Watering logic for the Black ZZ Plant is simple but emotionally difficult.

Seasonal differences matter because light intensity changes. In brighter months, the plant uses more water.

In darker months, it uses very little.

Temperature plays a role, but light drives photosynthesis, which drives water demand. Chronic wetness is the primary killer because it deprives rhizomes of oxygen and invites pathogens.

Checking soil dryness correctly means going beyond the surface.

The top can be dry while the bottom remains wet. Using a finger, a wooden skewer, or simply lifting the pot to assess weight provides better information. A dry pot feels noticeably lighter.

Sour or fermented smells indicate anaerobic conditions, which are incompatible with healthy roots. Leaf softening is an early signal of trouble. It can indicate dehydration if the soil is bone dry for too long, or rot if the soil is wet and oxygen-starved.

Context matters.

Top watering is usually safer than bottom watering for this species because it flushes salts and allows better assessment of how much water the soil actually absorbs.

Bottom watering can leave the lower soil saturated for too long, especially in oversized pots.

Water thoroughly, allow excess to drain, and then wait.

Watering again out of boredom or concern is how rot begins. The plant does not reward attentiveness. It rewards restraint.

Physiology Made Simple

Anthocyanins give the ‘Raven’ its black coloration, but chlorophyll remains underneath, quietly capturing light energy.

Higher light deepens the black because anthocyanin production increases as a protective response to light exposure. Turgor pressure refers to the internal water pressure that keeps plant cells firm.

When water is available in the rhizomes, cells stay rigid and leaves stand upright.

When reserves are depleted or roots are damaged, turgor drops and leaves soften.

Rhizomes function as storage organs, allowing the plant to survive drought and neglect. This survival strategy explains why constant care feels like harassment. Frequent watering, moving, and feeding disrupt the plant’s steady rhythm.

It survives neglect because it evolved for unpredictability.

It resents constant attention because it did not evolve for it.

Common Problems

Why are the leaves yellowing?

Yellowing usually indicates excess moisture rather than deficiency.

When roots lack oxygen, nutrient uptake falters and chlorophyll breaks down. The correction is drying, not feeding.

Adding fertilizer to a drowning plant increases salt stress and accelerates decline.

Why are stems collapsing or turning soft?

Soft stems point to rot, often originating in the rhizomes. The biology is simple.

Cells deprived of oxygen break down, and pathogens move in.

Cutting back affected growth and improving drainage can help early cases, but continuing to water out of hope guarantees failure.

Why is the black color fading?

Fading color usually means insufficient light. Anthocyanin production drops when light is scarce. Moving the plant closer to a light source helps.

Do not respond with fertilizer, which does nothing for pigment and increases stress.

Why is growth extremely slow?

Slow growth is normal, especially in low light.

The plant conserves energy. Forcing growth with water or fertilizer produces weak tissue. Accept the pace or increase light slightly and wait.

Why did it suddenly die after being “fine for months”?

This delayed collapse is classic rot. Damage occurred long before symptoms appeared. The rhizomes stored water until they could not, then failed quickly.

The mistake was earlier and quieter, usually chronic overwatering.

Pest and Pathogens

ZZ plants resist pests until stressed.

Spider mites appear under dry conditions, producing fine webbing and stippled leaves. Early signs are subtle and easily missed.

Alcohol treatments work because they dissolve the mites’ protective coatings, but repeated gentle applications are safer than aggressive spraying.

Isolation matters because mites spread easily.

Bacterial soft rot affects rhizomes in saturated soil. Tissue becomes mushy and foul-smelling. At this stage, disposal is often safer than rescue.

Pathogens spread internally, and saving one plant is not worth infecting others.

Integrated pest management resources from university extension programs emphasize sanitation and early intervention, principles that apply strongly here.

Propagation & Pruning

Healthy rhizomes feel firm and store water and nutrients, which is why division works when done carefully.

Propagation with Zamioculcas zamiifolia ‘Raven’ is an exercise in patience disguised as gardening competence.

The plant grows from rhizomes, which are thickened underground stems that act like storage batteries for water and carbohydrates.

Dividing those rhizomes is the fastest and least emotionally taxing way to make more plants, because each division already contains stored energy and a growing point. The logic is simple biology rather than magic. When a rhizome is separated with at least one healthy stem and some roots attached, it already knows how to be a plant.

What not to do is slice a rhizome into tiny hopeful chunks, because small fragments lack enough stored reserves to support new growth before rot or dehydration wins.

Leaf cuttings are possible, but they are not efficient unless patience is a personality trait.

Each glossy leaflet contains enough tissue to eventually form a new rhizome, but the timeline runs in months, not weeks.

The cut base of the leaf has to dedifferentiate, meaning its cells revert to a more flexible state, and then form a callus before any roots appear. Auxin, a plant hormone involved in root initiation, accumulates naturally at the cut site, so commercial rooting hormone is optional rather than essential.

What not to do here is overwater the cutting out of anxiety.

Constant moisture deprives the forming tissue of oxygen and invites bacterial rot long before roots ever show up.

Slow rooting is not a failure signal.

It is the plant operating at its natural pace. A leaf cutting can sit in barely moist soil for months looking exactly the same, which is unsettling but normal.

Digging it up to check progress interrupts the fragile process and often resets it entirely.

Leaving it alone is not neglect; it is cooperation. Seed propagation is irrelevant for this cultivar because ‘Raven’ is a selected clone.

Even if flowers appear and seeds somehow form indoors, the offspring would not reliably carry the black pigmentation that makes the plant desirable.

Pruning is rarely cosmetic with this species.

The upright stems are structural, not decorative extras, and removing healthy ones reduces the plant’s stored energy. Pruning becomes necessary only when stems are physically damaged, rotting at the base, or collapsing due to previous overwatering.

Cutting cleanly at the soil line with sterile tools prevents pathogens from entering the rhizome.

What not to do is trim tips for shape or symmetry, because ZZ plants do not branch in response. They simply lose that stem and quietly judge you.

Diagnostic Comparison Table

The Black ZZ Plant is often lumped into a category of indestructible houseplants, which becomes misleading when compared to superficially similar species. A direct comparison helps clarify what this plant actually tolerates and where assumptions cause problems.

Plant	Growth Habit	Light Tolerance	Water Tolerance	Toxicity	Visual Impact
Zamioculcas zamiifolia ‘Raven’	Rhizomatous perennial with upright petioles	Low to bright indirect, color improves with more light	High drought tolerance, low wet tolerance	Calcium oxalate irritation	Nearly black mature foliage
Zamioculcas zamiifolia	Rhizomatous perennial with upright petioles	Low to bright indirect	High drought tolerance, low wet tolerance	Calcium oxalate irritation	Glossy medium green foliage
Aspidistra elatior	Rhizomatous perennial with strap leaves	Low to medium indirect	Moderate drought tolerance	Mild irritation	Matte green arching leaves

The Raven ZZ behaves almost identically to the standard green ZZ in terms of survival mechanics.

Both store water in rhizomes and both resent frequent watering with impressive consistency.

The difference is visual rather than physiological.

The black pigmentation in ‘Raven’ comes from high concentrations of anthocyanins layered over chlorophyll, which means brighter light deepens color rather than burning it, as long as direct sun is avoided.

Assuming the black leaves mean the plant wants darkness is a common error that leads to stretched, weak growth.

Aspidistra elatior, often called the cast iron plant, tolerates low light and irregular care but handles moisture differently. Its roots are less prone to sudden collapse from occasional overwatering, which is why people conflate the two. Toxicity is similar across all three, limited to mechanical irritation from calcium oxalate crystals rather than systemic poisoning.

Beginner suitability depends less on experience and more on restraint.

The ZZ plants reward those who leave them alone, while Aspidistra tolerates fussing with more grace. Treating a Raven ZZ like a thirsty fern is the fastest way to turn confidence into compost.

If You Just Want This Plant to Survive

Survival mode with a Black ZZ Plant is not heroic.

It is quiet, boring, and deeply effective. The most reliable setup involves stable light, a pot that drains, and the emotional discipline to stop checking the soil every day.

This plant evolved to endure long dry stretches by drawing on rhizome reserves, not to respond to constant attention. Minimal intervention works because the plant’s metabolism is slow and conservative.

Poking it repeatedly does not speed anything up.

Light stability matters more than intensity extremes. A consistent spot with moderate indirect light allows the plant to calibrate its energy use.

Moving it around weekly in search of the perfect aesthetic confuses its internal rhythms and often results in stalled growth. What not to do is chase seasonal sun patches like a cat, because the plant cannot adjust its physiology that quickly.

Sudden changes increase stress without improving appearance.

Pot choice is quietly critical.

A pot only slightly larger than the rhizome mass dries predictably and reduces the risk of stagnant moisture.

Oversized pots stay wet in the lower layers long after the surface looks dry, which is how people rot a plant while insisting they barely watered it. Fertilizer should be applied sparingly, if at all, during active growth.

The rhizomes already store nutrients, and excess fertilizer salts accumulate in soil, damaging roots. What not to do is feed on a schedule driven by guilt rather than observation.

Daily checking is not attentive care; it is interference. Every time soil is disturbed or moisture is added prematurely, oxygen is displaced around the roots.

Roots need air as much as water, and suffocation is a quiet killer. Leaving the plant alone for weeks at a time is not negligence.

It is the correct interpretation of its biology.

Survival with this species looks like forgetting about it until it politely reminds you it exists by producing a new, very dark leaf.

Buyer Expectations & Long-Term Behavior

Brighter indirect light deepens the dark pigmentation without burning the leaves.

Growth in Zamioculcas zamiifolia ‘Raven’ is slow to moderate, depending on light and overall stability. New shoots emerge from the rhizome fully formed in height, then harden and darken over time.

The black coloration does not appear immediately.

Juvenile leaves start green because chlorophyll production ramps up before anthocyanin accumulation.

Over weeks to months, the pigment deepens, especially under brighter indirect light. Expecting instant black foliage leads to unnecessary adjustments that usually slow the process.

Six months of ownership often looks uneventful.

The plant establishes roots, adjusts to light, and quietly stores energy. Two years in, the structure fills out, rhizomes thicken, and new growth becomes more regular.

Longevity is measured in decades rather than seasons when basic needs are met.

This is not a disposable decor item unless treated like one.

Relocation shock is real. Moving the plant from a bright store environment to a dim corner at home can cause temporary yellowing or stalled growth.

This is not a death spiral.

It is a metabolic slowdown while the plant recalibrates photosynthesis.

What not to do is respond with fertilizer or extra watering, because the plant is already reducing activity. Adding resources it cannot use only increases rot risk.

Recovery from mistakes is possible because of the rhizomes. Even when foliage is lost, healthy underground storage can regenerate new stems once conditions improve.

Panic-driven interventions usually cause more harm than the original problem. Long-term behavior with this plant rewards patience, consistency, and a willingness to let time pass without commentary.

New Buyer Guide: How to Avoid Bringing Home a Lemon

Firm stems and dry, odor-free soil are better indicators of health than shiny leaves.

At the point of purchase, the most important inspection happens below the soil line, even though stores encourage admiration of leaves. Rhizomes should feel firm through the pot wall when gently squeezed. Softness indicates rot that may not yet be visible above ground.

Stems should stand upright without wobbling, because loose stems often mean compromised attachment to the rhizome.

Pot weight tells a story. A pot that feels unusually heavy for its size is often waterlogged, which suggests the plant has been sitting wet for too long.

Combined with sour or fermented soil odor, this is a warning sign of anaerobic conditions where harmful bacteria thrive.

What not to do is assume the plant will dry out quickly at home.

Damage already done does not reverse on optimism alone.

Retail environments commonly overwater ZZ plants because staff follow generic schedules. Leaves may look perfect while rhizomes quietly decay. Hidden rot often reveals itself weeks later, which is why walking away from a questionable specimen is sometimes the most competent choice.

Buying a healthy plant costs less than attempting a rescue that fails slowly.

Check for uneven yellowing or translucent patches at the base of stems, which suggest internal breakdown.

Cosmetic dust can be wiped off, but structural problems cannot.

Choosing a firm, slightly dry plant with rigid stems is not being picky. It is avoiding a delayed disappointment disguised as a bargain.

Blooms & Reality Check

Zamioculcas zamiifolia ‘Raven’ can bloom, but the event is biologically interesting rather than visually impressive. The flower consists of a spadix, which is a thick central spike holding tiny flowers, partially enclosed by a spathe, a modified leaf. This structure is typical of the Araceae family.

Indoors, blooms are rare because flowering requires surplus energy beyond basic survival and storage.

When blooms do appear, they emerge near the soil line and are often missed entirely. They do not resemble traditional flowers and do not add ornamental value. The foliage is the entire point of owning this plant.

Expecting blooms as a sign of success misunderstands its priorities.

Fertilizer cannot safely force flowering. Excess nutrients push soft growth that stresses roots and increases disease risk without guaranteeing blooms.

What not to do is chase flowers with stronger feeding or brighter direct sun.

Both approaches compromise foliage health, which is the plant’s primary contribution to a room. Appreciating this species means accepting that its beauty is structural and permanent, not seasonal and performative.

Is This a Good Plant for You?

Difficulty level with the Black ZZ Plant is low, provided restraint comes naturally. The biggest risk factor is overwatering driven by good intentions. People who enjoy frequent interaction often struggle because the plant does not respond positively to constant adjustment.

The ideal environment offers stable temperatures, indirect light, and long gaps between watering.

Those who should avoid this plant are chronic overcarers and anyone needing visible weekly progress to feel successful.

The plant does not reward micromanagement.

It rewards trust. Homes with pets that chew foliage should exercise caution due to calcium oxalate irritation, though the risk is localized rather than life-threatening.

For someone wanting an architectural, dark-leaved plant that survives occasional neglect without complaint, this species performs exceptionally well. It does not fill space quickly, but it holds space confidently. Compatibility here is less about skill and more about temperament.

FAQ

Is the Black ZZ Plant really low light tolerant?

It tolerates low light by slowing its metabolism and reducing growth, not by thriving. In dim conditions it survives, but stems may stretch and color may stay more green than black. What not to do is assume darkness is acceptable indefinitely, because photosynthesis still requires light to maintain tissue health.

Is Zamioculcas zamiifolia ‘Raven’ safe for pets?

The plant contains calcium oxalate raphides, which are needle-like crystals that cause irritation if chewed. Symptoms are localized to the mouth and throat rather than systemic poisoning. What not to do is ignore chewing behavior, because repeated exposure increases discomfort even if it is rarely fatal.

Why do new leaves start green?

Chlorophyll production comes first because it is essential for energy capture. Anthocyanins accumulate later, deepening the color as the leaf matures. What not to do is move the plant repeatedly to force color change, because stability matters more than chasing darkness.

How often should I water it?

Watering frequency depends on how long the soil takes to dry fully, which varies by light and pot type. Many homes require watering only every few weeks. What not to do is follow a calendar schedule, because wet soil without oxygen leads to rot regardless of the date.

Does it grow faster in bright light?

Brighter indirect light increases photosynthetic efficiency, which supports more regular growth. Direct sun, however, can overheat leaf tissue. What not to do is place it in harsh sunlight thinking black leaves mean sun tolerance.

Can it live in an office with fluorescent lights?

It can survive under fluorescent lighting if exposure is consistent and reasonably bright. Growth will be slower, but stable. What not to do is place it far from the light source, because intensity drops quickly with distance.

Why did mine rot even though I barely watered it?

Rot often results from poor drainage or oversized pots that stay wet internally. Even infrequent watering can be too much if the soil never dries. What not to do is assume watering volume matters more than drying time.

Is it actually black or just very dark green?

The leaves are deep green overlaid with dark anthocyanins, which appear black under most indoor lighting. In bright light the green undertone becomes more visible. What not to do is expect a flat, matte black, because living pigments interact with light.

Resources

The Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew provides taxonomic and cultivation context for Zamioculcas zamiifolia, clarifying its native habitat and growth form at https://powo.science.kew.org. The Missouri Botanical Garden offers practical houseplant care information grounded in botany, including details on rhizomatous species at https://www.missouribotanicalgarden.org.

For understanding calcium oxalate toxicity and why irritation is mechanical rather than chemical, the ASPCA’s plant safety database is useful at https://www.aspca.org. The University of Florida IFAS Extension explains root oxygen requirements and why drainage matters for container plants at https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu.

For anthocyanin function and leaf pigmentation, the Royal Horticultural Society provides accessible explanations at https://www.rhs.org.uk.

Integrated pest management principles relevant to houseplants are outlined by university extensions such as Cornell at https://ipm.cornell.edu.

These sources collectively ground care decisions in plant physiology rather than hearsay.